I don't know the context you have in mind but 私は sounds like you're answering a question about where the item came from. Maybe you snuck it into their bag or loaned it to them last week.

>>1271

I thought I'd use が if I was answering a question. As for context, I have none in mind. It's week old Japanese knowledge.

Last edited 12/02/29(Wed)16:04.

>>1272
Yes, the answer to that question would be with が. Still, 私は looks redundant because 上げた already includes the information about who performed the action. Also I'm pretty sure that past form of 上げる would be 上げた, not 上げった.
Why do you want to use を? (に is correct, by the way).

>>1274

I was just confused when I thought over it some more. How so does 上げた already contain information about who did it?

Last edited 12/03/02(Fri)04:28.

>>1275

>I was just confused when I thought over it some more.

Well, there's nothing to be confused about. を marks a direct object (in this case - what you give), and に marks an indirect object (to whom). Your sentence can be further expanded to show what goes where: おくりものをあなたに上げた。

>How so does 上げた already contain information about who did it?

This one of the most interesting things in Japanese grammar. There are verbs that contain information about the "direction of action" (who does the action and in whose interests). 上げる implies that action is performed by first person in the interests of second or third person. This means that you can not use 上げる both ways. To say "You gave it to me" you will have to say 「あなたは私にくれた。」, not 「あなたは私に上げた。」 So, basically it's either first person to second/third person (上げる) or the other way around (くれる). In case of a third person giving something to third person you can also use 上げる or くれる, but you must pick sides and associate yourself with the giver or the receiver. This makes pronouns redundant in many cases and they are often omitted. Overall, personal pronouns are used much less often in Japanese than in English. Also, see this for a more thorough explanation about 上げる etc.: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/favors

Last edited 12/03/02(Fri)07:28.

>>1276

Oh my god, I completely forgot about the last line in my OP. However, say that you have a completely "normal" verb. Without context, and without any pronoun or name, would you know who did it? No, that wouldn't make sense since you'd probably have context and/or enough information before it to be able to tell.

I'm still confused about many things in Japanese, but it's only been two weeks since I started on anything besides learning to read. Three years of Spanish class, and I can make sentences and read the Spanish out of the textbook just fine, but I didn't want to, so I just kind of coasted along and it happened. Two weeks of self-"teaching" Japanese, where I'm interested, and I get confused and angry when I don't understand, yet expect to quickly. Guess I should keep working at it.

>However, say that you have a completely "normal" verb. Without context, and without any pronoun or name, would you know who did it?

The thing is, you can make compound verbs by adding 上げる/くれる to other verbs (上げる means "to give" only on its own, in a broader sense it means "to do something in someone else's interests"). For example, you have 助ける (to help). Then you make a て-form of 助ける: 助けて, and then add 上げる, so you get 助けて上げる ("I will help you"). Likewise, you can say 助けてくれる ("You will help me"). Using this grammar you can speak in sentences without subjects and objects at all, unless you have to answer a question specifically asking who does something.

Last edited 12/03/02(Fri)08:40.

>>1278

I guess it's English's fault for myself being so subject-oriented, or, in that I need to have one.

I'm reading those two as "I give help" and "You give help" even though help is still a verb. Seems to be a noun in how I think of it, but then there's all that nouns that turn into verbs and verbs that turn into nouns throughout the two langauges.

If I may ask something else, what is te form, exactly? All I know is it's a form you conjugate to do to STUFF. Side note, it was 上げた, and I realised, while looking over the notes I had, I conjugated it like a u-verb.

>>1280
the -te form is really useful. it allows you to add additional info onto your sentence.
consider it means connecting things together, or doing x and y. it even kinda works with adjectives (今日は暑くて蒸し暑くてさ - it's so hot and humid today). when you use it with the copula (desu/da => de) you can make sub-sentences. "私は生徒で、先生ではない” - I'm a student, not a teacher. (I'm not promising this, or any, example sounds completely natural)

you can do the same with just verbs too. a bit of gundam wing seed comes to mind.. ”戦って,戦って死ね！”　- fight, fight and die!
many set constructs exist, like やってみる　- do (and) see meaning just "try it" when together like this. you'll hear 試してみる　often too, where 試す means test or attempt but the full construct just means try.
the verb/te + ageru/kureru was discussed previously but is the same idea. you give/receive the favour of someone doing something (for someone).

it's a very good idea to study closely the relationship between ageru/kureru and morau. it's easy to make your sentences mean something completely different if you mess these up and it takes some getting used to.

I'm sure you've heard itterasshai and ittekimasu before :) they use this too. iku => itte you'll probably already know, and ikimasu is no different. you'll probably have heard a shopkeeper or 2 exclaim "irasshaimase!" which is a polite imperative meaning you're welcome (to come in). so when someone leaves he say "I'm going and coming back!" and the reply would mean something like "go and be welcome to return!".
roughly :)

Last edited 12/03/12(Mon)23:09.

One other thing that has been irking me is that I can't seem to break any sentance structed with X(は/が)Y(に/を)Verb(Verb conj) or X(は/が)Y(です/だ with those various conjugations.) Everytime I try to practice it, publicly, it's the same. (Please tell me if they're correct.)

Youtube comment - DRUGS ARE SCARY, KIDS.
コカインは怖いだ
Short text in a Touhou Forum, (That appears under your avatar) - 俺の生活が東方だ.
A thread that's entitled "The lie thread" (Where you have to make any statement that's a lie) - あたしの日本語の文法が素晴らしいだ
I read a sentance that was essentially my first example of the type I can't break, except for the fact that it introduced one more particle, (Both ni and wo). I couldn't make sense, yes I had the translation, of what it meant until I read the information backwards which actually matched with the English. I don't like to think of Japanese as backwards English, I like to think it as particles that tell how they relate to the verb, in any order, with the verb at the end.
I believe the sentance was, (And I'm too lazy to find the characters for it), Last week(ni)movie(wo)mita(person)wa(dare).

Last edited 12/03/13(Tue)19:27.

>>1289
you wouldn't believe how often reversing everything in a long sentence led me to the proper English translation... :/
the last sentence you gave happens to fit this too. who [was the] person [who] saw [the/that] movie last week?
it's definitely wrong to just reverse every Japanese sentence but it's amazing how often that turns out to be correct.

anyway, in this sentence 'ni' targets a certain time -last week-. 'wo' gives us a direct object -movie-, 'wa' is a subject marker -person that saw-. here, the 'desu ka' at the end is left out although it could be said it should grammatically be there.

you can say this too: dare ga senshuu ni eiga wo mitahito desu ka?
both still seem a little weird still but w/e

Last edited 12/03/14(Wed)02:22.

>>1290

I was only confused in that sentance by the addition of ni, but if you describe it as giving us the date or time, then it makes sense now.